Re: Registration Images

[Robert Pries <robertpries@embarqmail.com>]

Okay; You want the treatise. Truthfully I think You should suggest some uses but it is always easier to find fault with positive suggestions, so here are a large group of my thoughts and everyone can tear them apart and maybe we will have nothing left;

My preference would be to start collecting the pictures and create the policy and procedures later as we experience the difficulties. The reference you made to the wiki problem is interesting because in theory my team of expert advisors, You, Catherine and Chris all told me after the fact that you were aware of the limitation that caused the problem. But sadly none of you mentioned that it could be a problem. I never pretended to know of that and sadly since no one bothered to inform me, we are now stuck with the hard work of essentially recreating the wiki. So maybe everything does need to be spelled out.

I would fully expect that any pictures used as part of registration would be archived in the AIS library for future use in any pertinent AIS project. That of course would include the wiki, slide programs, the bulletin, promotional materials, sales and auctions. Despite the fact that AIS would have use of these materials I believe any other use should be at the discretion of the hybridizer/photographer. Hybridizers should not see their pictures used by a competing nursery unless of course they have been given permission by the hybridizer.  But pictures used by AIS to in some way promote Iris benefits the hybridizer also in the form of good publicity. If anyone bothers to stop and think, they can realize how useful this could be both to AIS and to the registrant. Just as the Iris Encyclopedia and for that matter Davebs Garden says that the photos are the copyright of the photographer the same is essentially true here but they could be used to favorably promote/educate AIS and the hybridizer.

I have worded my posts carefully to say that we should ASK for images. I have not said, Demand. I believe if we ask as if it were a requirement, we would get good compliance but I am not ruling out registrations that just can not comply. I have not and would not expect to make strict requirements on file size, quality, etc. Until we have some sort of system in place and functioning I believe we will just have to utilize what we get in the best ways that are possible. Practically everything can go into the Encyclopedia because it uses small file sizes and even poor quality can add to the information until better pictures come along. But unless the photos received are of sufficient quality and file size the may not be valuable for future use in the Bulletin. The Slide program chair would probably have less of a requirement for file size than the bulletin but perhaps need for better quality than the Wiki. But presently we have nothing from registration. Registration is what sets us apart from the Daves Gardens and not utilizing it to assemble the best knowledge base we can is a waste of that opportunity.

Local Affiliates are always looking for a source of photos for their plant sales. Presently many contributors to the wiki say they are pleased to allow their photos for plant sale or auction use. But others who have contributed wish to retain their copy rights and prefer they were not used for affiliate sales unless request is made to them. If AIS had official registration pictures they could be identified as such and utilized by the AIS affiliates.

You mentioned that pictures are used for verification and identification. I am sure all HIPS members would have been delighted if pictures had been part of the early registrations. Everyone knows that identification using pictures is risky. It is even worse when you only have written descriptions, even the more modern ones written descriptions that give beard color, etc. But everyone knows that everyday irisarians are making identifications based on rather poor information. Pictures will only improve this slightly but they will improve it. It seems for more logical to have at least some pictures from the hybridizer that can be depended on as at least the plant he was introduce than even good photos that came later but may have gotten the plants confused. Considering that some hybridizers do not do a great job of writing a description a picture is at least is like a second opinion of whether the written registration works.

My fingers are getting tired and every thing I have written seems like it would be self-evident to anyone seeing this e-mail, but I was asked to spell it all out. so I apologize for boring everyone. I am sure I have missed a lot. And we could go into details of how we store the pictures, how they get to the library and to the people doing projects, but all those logistics are unimportant until we decide to do this. It seems to me more important to adopt the dream than to study forever why we would have challenges to living the dream and fall asleep in the process. The idea could add to the robustness of many aspects of our society. 

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Jones" <jijones@usjoneses.com>
To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:00:13 PM
Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images

> John seems determined that I answer some of his questions so here goes;

If you don't want to answer questions, then don't. I ask questions and
make comments because I think they are important to ask them or to clarify
things that have been said. If I think of the question I am sure others
have as well.

I would hope that more folks would jump in with thoughts.

> As we both said Mike and Anne get somewhere between 1 and 4% of
> registrations with images. Yes that is a low number, but what would you
> expect when as they say they do not ask for them. I believe that is the
> point of this motion. The point I was making is that they already have
> dealt with the possibility.

Again and not to take anything away from the Lowes but while Mike chose
FileMakerPro to manage the Registration database AND FilemakerPro has the
capability to manage photographs (and does it well) nothing else special
has been done or required. Any database program could do the same. Lets
keep things in perspective.

Having the pictures in a database is different that having them available
for viewing online is different. (more on this further on)

> Mike shared with me that there have been instances where a photo indicated
> that the hybridizer needed to adjust his submitted written description. I
> would say that is helpful.

Yes it would be.

>
> It seems to me that all the issues of technology are incidental to making
> a decision as to whether to do something. It is easy to never try because
> we do not know how. Instead I would rather we commit to trying and figure
> out the how as we begin.

I don't think they are incidental. They can have a great impact on how
much effort and cost it might take to implement something. Bob seems to
think it is wrong to have a clear understanding of what it will take to
implement something. I would think that he, of all people, would
understand the implications of choosing a technology considering the
problems he has had with the wiki.

>
> I believe John is asking the wrong question when he asks how will these
> images be used. I could write pages on how we could use them at present,
> and how they might be used in the future. I would hope that everyone could
> think of many ways they could be beneficial. And they will certainly be
> abused also.

Educate us Bob. Let's avoid hyperbole. So far I have only heard one way
they would be used and I was not aware, nor do I believe, that it is the
Registrar's responsibility to judge the accuracy of nor to correct a
hybridizer's description.

Oh, I forgot, hybridizers won't have to write descriptions any more
(tongue-in-cheek lest someone think I really mean that).

Yes, the only real negative I have thought of is the issue surrounding
released names and multiple registered images. Certainly it won't be a big
problem, but at least we have considered it.

I believe that in order for someone (irisarian or not) to evaluate an iris
that they need a range of photographs. One only needs to go into the wiki
to see examples of how widely pictures of the same flower can vary. I
actually believe that is a benefit.

Bob says that there are "pages on how we could use them". That begs the
question of how the pictures are to be made available to the "Dave's
Garden" crowd (evidently our target market) or all the others that will
use them. It would seem that the wiki would be a good place to put the
photos. Certainly creating yet another online source for the pictures
would be counter-productive.

The irisregister database could be modified to accommodate pictures. Do we
have one or multiple pictures? Is this duplicated on the wiki?

I believe in looking at all sides of a question and that ignoring those
issues that are counter to a personal position is a mistake.

To be clear: I am in favor of requiring pictures for registrations.

There are implementation issues surrounding the policy.

* Do we refuse to register a cultivar if there is no picture?
* Is there a period that we allow but not require photos?
* Are there some hybridizers that can't comply?
* Are we going to require that hybridizers fill in previous registrations
with photos? (I can see the email now "pictures of my previous
registrations can be found on my XXX website".)

What are the standards for photo characteristics and labeling? I would be
glad to provide a stalking horse for that:

* provide both a flower picture and a whole plant picture

(I had not even thought about the clump issue before) (This is a good
example of why we need dialog)

(How about a stalk picture to show branching?)

* No other plants in the photo

* between 4 X 6 and 5 X 7 in either portrait or landscape orientation

* 72 dpi

* JPEG format 50% compression


>
> To me the real question is why are our members going to Davebs Garden to
> see pictures?



I thought that is why we started the wiki.


John

> Why is it that AIS is not fulfilling the needs of its
> membership? Why are we sending our members away instead of providing them
> what they are looking for. Collecting this type of data gives AIS greater
> authority and value. Failing to move forward just allows us to slip
> further behind. And yes we are compared by plants-people to other plant
> societies. Until we think of how to satisfy the wants and needs of our
> members we will not prosper.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Jones" <jijones@usjoneses.com>
> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:00:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>
> The times I have spoken to Mike Lowe about how many pictures he receives,
> he indicated 1% - 2%, maybe a minor point but indicating a very low
> number.
>
> I am not sure how "helpful" they were in that he also said that the only
> thing he did with them was to staple them to the Registration form and
> file them.
>
> Mike has, over the time he has been Registrar, at times tried scanning
> pictures and registration forms. He gave up because it took too much time
> and required too much storage. Technology has changed and scanning is
> easier and better but still requires a lot of time and massive storage
> (scanning of handwriting has to be at a high resolution to be able to read
> it).
>
> Storage continues to get cheaper and cheaper. But with the geometries of
> the storage cells getting into sub-nanometer range it also makes them more
> susceptible to high energy particle damage. Sound like science fiction? It
> is not.
>
> The evolution of storage devices often makes previous technology
> unavailable. Anybody seen a floppy disk recently, how about a zip drive?
> Cartridge disks? I have lost significant data because there are no longer
> mechanisms that can read the media.
>
> About the only place that is safe to keep information and be assured that
> you will continue to have access to the data is in the cloud (in the
> internet).
>
> The reason I say this is not to say we should not do this but to point out
> that there are costs and risks associated with technology that are not
> generally considered until it is too late.
>
> I am not against requiring pictures for registrations. But no one has told
> me how they are going to be used. There have been lots of comments about
> how experienced irisarians would use the pictures. But what about those
> who aren't (who also comprise a much larger population of iris growers.)
>
>
>> Terry; Mike and Anne tell me they get images for about 2-4% of
>> registrations. They have not asked for them, but they have been helpful.
>> One of the goals for the suggested motion, is to help build the AIS
>> library archives. The Iris Encyclopedia also treasure photos from the
>> hybridizer. Since through time, in the Encyclopedia, when many photos
>> are
>> added to a particular cultivar page, if something has been radically
>> photoshoped, it becomes evident. No system is perfect, The words a
>> hybridizer uses may not be acurate in the description, but we still
>> write
>> descriptions. As we all adjust to new media, we all become more
>> sophisticated. I wish I could say the Iris Encyclopedia was the first of
>> its kind. But the Daylily Society, the Daffodil Society, and others have
>> all created databases with images and these use registration pictures
>> that
>> they require. Since we are not first, I suppose what we can hope for is
>> that we do it better. Certainly I would rather refer to the Iris
>> Encyclopedia than Daves Garden, or the dozen other references being
>> created out there on the internet. If we proceed quickly and well to
>> create a superior database, than people will come to the Iris Society
>> for
>> information. In that case we can send them to good sources and not the
>> questionable ones that often now appear on e-bay.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Terry Aitken" <terry@flowerfantasy.net>
>> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 1:09:55 PM
>> Subject: RE: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>>
>> 	The idea that Mike and Anne are receiving pictures of introduction
>> is news to me. They have never asked and I have never sent images. Ever
>> since we went to a color catalog - about 15 to 20 years ago - we have
>> offered all of our intos with color pictures. With an average of 10 per
>> year
>> (our own quota system), the 35mm slide days, I thought it was a waste of
>> time trying to collect images of plants UNLESS THEY WON AWARDS. I have
>> long
>> thought that, like the orchid society, we should have images of plants
>> that
>> are awarded. (the world is full of plants that aren't.)
>> 	Now, in the digital age, an image can be a double edged sword. It
>> can show how GOOD or HOW BAD a plant can really look. Another dimension
>> to
>> this is PHOTOSHOP. Enormous tricks can be played on the viewer by
>> messaging
>> an image - removing faults like narrow falls or adding colors that the
>> real
>> thing does not have. How much do you want to pay the computer operator
>> to
>> come up with a fictitious image? (I will admit to removing leaf spot,
>> dead
>> buds and torn petals on some of my images but I know it can go much
>> farther)
>> In addition, color accuracy on computer screens and projectors has been
>> a
>> notoriously bad problem.
>> 	Then there is the issue of the skill of the photographer. Some
>> photographers are very good at hiding faults like haft marks by simply
>> changing the angle of the flower. How good a story does the picture
>> tell?
>> A
>> photographer, unskilled in iris evaluation, may shoot a flower partly
>> open
>> or partly dead or awkwardly twisted - quite repulsive to the average
>> iris
>> judge or purchaser.
>> 	While the system is fraught with pitfalls, the concept of AN
>> INFORMED PUBLIC is a good one. Perhaps some of our more computer
>> literate
>> irisarians can address the pitfalls?
>>
>> Terry Aitken
>>
>> If I have a color image to look at, I will not bother with a written
>> description.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>> [mailto:owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org]
>> On Behalf Of Robert Pries
>> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 7:15 AM
>> To: AISdiscuss
>> Subject: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>>
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>
>
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