Re: Registration Images

[cemahan@aol.com]

I must disagree with Bob on one point. It is essential that AIS have written
policies in place re phographic images if we are to require them as a
condition for registering an iris. And we must state up front that the picture
becomes the property of AIS to use in any way it wishes. Otherwise I belive we
create a potential legal liability.
Because we are the world-wide registration authority we should also consult
with all other national iris societies, eg. British, NZ, Australian, French,
Italian, Japanese, before adopting the policy.  We should also cooridinate the
time-frame and details with these societies re implementation.  And it would
be only polite and decent to give them adequate time to consult with their
membership.  I favor Bob's idea to have the photos, but how we do it is
important;  Clarence






-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Pries <robertpries@embarqmail.com>
To: aisdiscuss <aisdiscuss@aisboard.org>
Sent: Tue, Mar 15, 2011 3:50 pm
Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images


Okay; You want the treatise. Truthfully I think You should suggest some uses
but
t is always easier to find fault with positive suggestions, so here are a
large
roup of my thoughts and everyone can tear them apart and maybe we will have
othing left;
My preference would be to start collecting the pictures and create the policy
nd procedures later as we experience the difficulties. The reference you made
o the wiki problem is interesting because in theory my team of expert
advisors,
ou, Catherine and Chris all told me after the fact that you were aware of the
imitation that caused the problem. But sadly none of you mentioned that it
ould be a problem. I never pretended to know of that and sadly since no one
othered to inform me, we are now stuck with the hard work of essentially
ecreating the wiki. So maybe everything does need to be spelled out.
I would fully expect that any pictures used as part of registration would be
rchived in the AIS library for future use in any pertinent AIS project. That
of
ourse would include the wiki, slide programs, the bulletin, promotional
aterials, sales and auctions. Despite the fact that AIS would have use of
these
aterials I believe any other use should be at the discretion of the
ybridizer/photographer. Hybridizers should not see their pictures used by a
ompeting nursery unless of course they have been given permission by the
ybridizer.  But pictures used by AIS to in some way promote Iris benefits the
ybridizer also in the form of good publicity. If anyone bothers to stop and
hink, they can realize how useful this could be both to AIS and to the
egistrant. Just as the Iris Encyclopedia and for that matter Davebs Garden
says
hat the photos are the copyright of the photographer the same is essentially
rue here but they could be used to favorably promote/educate AIS and!
 the hybridizer.
I have worded my posts carefully to say that we should ASK for images. I have
ot said, Demand. I believe if we ask as if it were a requirement, we would get
ood compliance but I am not ruling out registrations that just can not comply.
 have not and would not expect to make strict requirements on file size,
uality, etc. Until we have some sort of system in place and functioning I
elieve we will just have to utilize what we get in the best ways that are
ossible. Practically everything can go into the Encyclopedia because it uses
mall file sizes and even poor quality can add to the information until better
ictures come along. But unless the photos received are of sufficient quality
nd file size the may not be valuable for future use in the Bulletin. The Slide
rogram chair would probably have less of a requirement for file size than the
ulletin but perhaps need for better quality than the Wiki. But presently we
ave nothing from registration. Registration is what set!
s us apart from the Daves Gardens and not utilizing it to assemble the best
nowledge base we can is a waste of that opportunity.
Local Affiliates are always looking for a source of photos for their plant
ales. Presently many contributors to the wiki say they are pleased to allow
heir photos for plant sale or auction use. But others who have contributed
wish
o retain their copy rights and prefer they were not used for affiliate sales
nless request is made to them. If AIS had official registration pictures they
ould be identified as such and utilized by the AIS affiliates.
You mentioned that pictures are used for verification and identification. I am
ure all HIPS members would have been delighted if pictures had been part of
the
arly registrations. Everyone knows that identification using pictures is
risky.
t is even worse when you only have written descriptions, even the more modern
nes written descriptions that give beard color, etc. But everyone knows that
veryday irisarians are making identifications based on rather poor
information.
ictures will only improve this slightly but they will improve it. It seems for
ore logical to have at least some pictures from the hybridizer that can be
epended on as at least the plant he was introduce than even good photos that
ame later but may have gotten the plants confused. Considering that some
ybridizers do not do a great job of writing a description a picture is at
least
s like a second opinion of whether the written registration works.
My fingers are getting tired and every thing I have written seems like it
would
e self-evident to anyone seeing this e-mail, but I was asked to spell it all
ut. so I apologize for boring everyone. I am sure I have missed a lot. And we
ould go into details of how we store the pictures, how they get to the library
nd to the people doing projects, but all those logistics are unimportant until
e decide to do this. It seems to me more important to adopt the dream than to
tudy forever why we would have challenges to living the dream and fall asleep
n the process. The idea could add to the robustness of many aspects of our
ociety.
----- Original Message -----
rom: "John Jones" <jijones@usjoneses.com>
o: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
ent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:00:13 PM
ubject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
> John seems determined that I answer some of his questions so here goes;
If you don't want to answer questions, then don't. I ask questions and
ake comments because I think they are important to ask them or to clarify
hings that have been said. If I think of the question I am sure others
ave as well.
I would hope that more folks would jump in with thoughts.
> As we both said Mike and Anne get somewhere between 1 and 4% of
 registrations with images. Yes that is a low number, but what would you
 expect when as they say they do not ask for them. I believe that is the
 point of this motion. The point I was making is that they already have
 dealt with the possibility.
Again and not to take anything away from the Lowes but while Mike chose
ileMakerPro to manage the Registration database AND FilemakerPro has the
apability to manage photographs (and does it well) nothing else special
as been done or required. Any database program could do the same. Lets
eep things in perspective.
Having the pictures in a database is different that having them available
or viewing online is different. (more on this further on)
> Mike shared with me that there have been instances where a photo indicated
 that the hybridizer needed to adjust his submitted written description. I
 would say that is helpful.
Yes it would be.
>
 It seems to me that all the issues of technology are incidental to making
 a decision as to whether to do something. It is easy to never try because
 we do not know how. Instead I would rather we commit to trying and figure
 out the how as we begin.
I don't think they are incidental. They can have a great impact on how
uch effort and cost it might take to implement something. Bob seems to
hink it is wrong to have a clear understanding of what it will take to
mplement something. I would think that he, of all people, would
nderstand the implications of choosing a technology considering the
roblems he has had with the wiki.
>
 I believe John is asking the wrong question when he asks how will these
 images be used. I could write pages on how we could use them at present,
 and how they might be used in the future. I would hope that everyone could
 think of many ways they could be beneficial. And they will certainly be
 abused also.
Educate us Bob. Let's avoid hyperbole. So far I have only heard one way
hey would be used and I was not aware, nor do I believe, that it is the
egistrar's responsibility to judge the accuracy of nor to correct a
ybridizer's description.
Oh, I forgot, hybridizers won't have to write descriptions any more
tongue-in-cheek lest someone think I really mean that).
Yes, the only real negative I have thought of is the issue surrounding
eleased names and multiple registered images. Certainly it won't be a big
roblem, but at least we have considered it.
I believe that in order for someone (irisarian or not) to evaluate an iris
hat they need a range of photographs. One only needs to go into the wiki
o see examples of how widely pictures of the same flower can vary. I
ctually believe that is a benefit.
Bob says that there are "pages on how we could use them". That begs the
uestion of how the pictures are to be made available to the "Dave's
arden" crowd (evidently our target market) or all the others that will
se them. It would seem that the wiki would be a good place to put the
hotos. Certainly creating yet another online source for the pictures
ould be counter-productive.
The irisregister database could be modified to accommodate pictures. Do we
ave one or multiple pictures? Is this duplicated on the wiki?
I believe in looking at all sides of a question and that ignoring those
ssues that are counter to a personal position is a mistake.
To be clear: I am in favor of requiring pictures for registrations.
There are implementation issues surrounding the policy.
* Do we refuse to register a cultivar if there is no picture?
 Is there a period that we allow but not require photos?
 Are there some hybridizers that can't comply?
 Are we going to require that hybridizers fill in previous registrations
ith photos? (I can see the email now "pictures of my previous
egistrations can be found on my XXX website".)
What are the standards for photo characteristics and labeling? I would be
lad to provide a stalking horse for that:
* provide both a flower picture and a whole plant picture
(I had not even thought about the clump issue before) (This is a good
xample of why we need dialog)
(How about a stalk picture to show branching?)
* No other plants in the photo
* between 4 X 6 and 5 X 7 in either portrait or landscape orientation
* 72 dpi
* JPEG format 50% compression


 To me the real question is why are our members going to Davebs Garden to
 see pictures?

I thought that is why we started the wiki.

ohn
> Why is it that AIS is not fulfilling the needs of its
 membership? Why are we sending our members away instead of providing them
 what they are looking for. Collecting this type of data gives AIS greater
 authority and value. Failing to move forward just allows us to slip
 further behind. And yes we are compared by plants-people to other plant
 societies. Until we think of how to satisfy the wants and needs of our
 members we will not prosper.

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: "John Jones" <jijones@usjoneses.com>
 To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
 Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:00:32 AM
 Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images

 The times I have spoken to Mike Lowe about how many pictures he receives,
 he indicated 1% - 2%, maybe a minor point but indicating a very low
 number.

 I am not sure how "helpful" they were in that he also said that the only
 thing he did with them was to staple them to the Registration form and
 file them.

 Mike has, over the time he has been Registrar, at times tried scanning
 pictures and registration forms. He gave up because it took too much time
 and required too much storage. Technology has changed and scanning is
 easier and better but still requires a lot of time and massive storage
 (scanning of handwriting has to be at a high resolution to be able to read
 it).

 Storage continues to get cheaper and cheaper. But with the geometries of
 the storage cells getting into sub-nanometer range it also makes them more
 susceptible to high energy particle damage. Sound like science fiction? It
 is not.

 The evolution of storage devices often makes previous technology
 unavailable. Anybody seen a floppy disk recently, how about a zip drive?
 Cartridge disks? I have lost significant data because there are no longer
 mechanisms that can read the media.

 About the only place that is safe to keep information and be assured that
 you will continue to have access to the data is in the cloud (in the
 internet).

 The reason I say this is not to say we should not do this but to point out
 that there are costs and risks associated with technology that are not
 generally considered until it is too late.

 I am not against requiring pictures for registrations. But no one has told
 me how they are going to be used. There have been lots of comments about
 how experienced irisarians would use the pictures. But what about those
 who aren't (who also comprise a much larger population of iris growers.)


> Terry; Mike and Anne tell me they get images for about 2-4% of
> registrations. They have not asked for them, but they have been helpful.
> One of the goals for the suggested motion, is to help build the AIS
> library archives. The Iris Encyclopedia also treasure photos from the
> hybridizer. Since through time, in the Encyclopedia, when many photos
> are
> added to a particular cultivar page, if something has been radically
> photoshoped, it becomes evident. No system is perfect, The words a
> hybridizer uses may not be acurate in the description, but we still
> write
> descriptions. As we all adjust to new media, we all become more
> sophisticated. I wish I could say the Iris Encyclopedia was the first of
> its kind. But the Daylily Society, the Daffodil Society, and others have
> all created databases with images and these use registration pictures
> that
> they require. Since we are not first, I suppose what we can hope for is
> that we do it better. Certainly I would rather refer to the Iris
> Encyclopedia than Daves Garden, or the dozen other references being
> created out there on the internet. If we proceed quickly and well to
> create a superior database, than people will come to the Iris Society
> for
> information. In that case we can send them to good sources and not the
> questionable ones that often now appear on e-bay.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Terry Aitken" <terry@flowerfantasy.net>
> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 1:09:55 PM
> Subject: RE: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>
> 	The idea that Mike and Anne are receiving pictures of introduction
> is news to me. They have never asked and I have never sent images. Ever
> since we went to a color catalog - about 15 to 20 years ago - we have
> offered all of our intos with color pictures. With an average of 10 per
> year
> (our own quota system), the 35mm slide days, I thought it was a waste of
> time trying to collect images of plants UNLESS THEY WON AWARDS. I have
> long
> thought that, like the orchid society, we should have images of plants
> that
> are awarded. (the world is full of plants that aren't.)
> 	Now, in the digital age, an image can be a double edged sword. It
> can show how GOOD or HOW BAD a plant can really look. Another dimension
> to
> this is PHOTOSHOP. Enormous tricks can be played on the viewer by
> messaging
> an image - removing faults like narrow falls or adding colors that the
> real
> thing does not have. How much do you want to pay the computer operator
> to
> come up with a fictitious image? (I will admit to removing leaf spot,
> dead
> buds and torn petals on some of my images but I know it can go much
> farther)
> In addition, color accuracy on computer screens and projectors has been
> a
> notoriously bad problem.
> 	Then there is the issue of the skill of the photographer. Some
> photographers are very good at hiding faults like haft marks by simply
> changing the angle of the flower. How good a story does the picture
> tell?
> A
> photographer, unskilled in iris evaluation, may shoot a flower partly
> open
> or partly dead or awkwardly twisted - quite repulsive to the average
> iris
> judge or purchaser.
> 	While the system is fraught with pitfalls, the concept of AN
> INFORMED PUBLIC is a good one. Perhaps some of our more computer
> literate
> irisarians can address the pitfalls?
>
> Terry Aitken
>
> If I have a color image to look at, I will not bother with a written
> description.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
> [mailto:owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org]
> On Behalf Of Robert Pries
> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 7:15 AM
> To: AISdiscuss
> Subject: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>
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