Re: Registration Images

["John Jones" <jijones@usjoneses.com>]

> John seems determined that I answer some of his questions so here goes;

If you don't want to answer questions, then don't. I ask questions and
make comments because I think they are important to ask them or to clarify
things that have been said. If I think of the question I am sure others
have as well.

I would hope that more folks would jump in with thoughts.

> As we both said Mike and Anne get somewhere between 1 and 4% of
> registrations with images. Yes that is a low number, but what would you
> expect when as they say they do not ask for them. I believe that is the
> point of this motion. The point I was making is that they already have
> dealt with the possibility.

Again and not to take anything away from the Lowes but while Mike chose
FileMakerPro to manage the Registration database AND FilemakerPro has the
capability to manage photographs (and does it well) nothing else special
has been done or required. Any database program could do the same. Lets
keep things in perspective.

Having the pictures in a database is different that having them available
for viewing online is different. (more on this further on)

> Mike shared with me that there have been instances where a photo indicated
> that the hybridizer needed to adjust his submitted written description. I
> would say that is helpful.

Yes it would be.

>
> It seems to me that all the issues of technology are incidental to making
> a decision as to whether to do something. It is easy to never try because
> we do not know how. Instead I would rather we commit to trying and figure
> out the how as we begin.

I don't think they are incidental. They can have a great impact on how
much effort and cost it might take to implement something. Bob seems to
think it is wrong to have a clear understanding of what it will take to
implement something. I would think that he, of all people, would
understand the implications of choosing a technology considering the
problems he has had with the wiki.

>
> I believe John is asking the wrong question when he asks how will these
> images be used. I could write pages on how we could use them at present,
> and how they might be used in the future. I would hope that everyone could
> think of many ways they could be beneficial. And they will certainly be
> abused also.

Educate us Bob. Let's avoid hyperbole. So far I have only heard one way
they would be used and I was not aware, nor do I believe, that it is the
Registrar's responsibility to judge the accuracy of nor to correct a
hybridizer's description.

Oh, I forgot, hybridizers won't have to write descriptions any more
(tongue-in-cheek lest someone think I really mean that).

Yes, the only real negative I have thought of is the issue surrounding
released names and multiple registered images. Certainly it won't be a big
problem, but at least we have considered it.

I believe that in order for someone (irisarian or not) to evaluate an iris
that they need a range of photographs. One only needs to go into the wiki
to see examples of how widely pictures of the same flower can vary. I
actually believe that is a benefit.

Bob says that there are "pages on how we could use them". That begs the
question of how the pictures are to be made available to the "Dave's
Garden" crowd (evidently our target market) or all the others that will
use them. It would seem that the wiki would be a good place to put the
photos. Certainly creating yet another online source for the pictures
would be counter-productive.

The irisregister database could be modified to accommodate pictures. Do we
have one or multiple pictures? Is this duplicated on the wiki?

I believe in looking at all sides of a question and that ignoring those
issues that are counter to a personal position is a mistake.

To be clear: I am in favor of requiring pictures for registrations.

There are implementation issues surrounding the policy.

* Do we refuse to register a cultivar if there is no picture?
* Is there a period that we allow but not require photos?
* Are there some hybridizers that can't comply?
* Are we going to require that hybridizers fill in previous registrations
with photos? (I can see the email now "pictures of my previous
registrations can be found on my XXX website".)

What are the standards for photo characteristics and labeling? I would be
glad to provide a stalking horse for that:

* provide both a flower picture and a whole plant picture

(I had not even thought about the clump issue before) (This is a good
example of why we need dialog)

(How about a stalk picture to show branching?)

* No other plants in the photo

* between 4 X 6 and 5 X 7 in either portrait or landscape orientation

* 72 dpi

* JPEG format 50% compression


>
> To me the real question is why are our members going to Davebs Garden to
> see pictures?



I thought that is why we started the wiki.


John

> Why is it that AIS is not fulfilling the needs of its
> membership? Why are we sending our members away instead of providing them
> what they are looking for. Collecting this type of data gives AIS greater
> authority and value. Failing to move forward just allows us to slip
> further behind. And yes we are compared by plants-people to other plant
> societies. Until we think of how to satisfy the wants and needs of our
> members we will not prosper.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Jones" <jijones@usjoneses.com>
> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:00:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>
> The times I have spoken to Mike Lowe about how many pictures he receives,
> he indicated 1% - 2%, maybe a minor point but indicating a very low
> number.
>
> I am not sure how "helpful" they were in that he also said that the only
> thing he did with them was to staple them to the Registration form and
> file them.
>
> Mike has, over the time he has been Registrar, at times tried scanning
> pictures and registration forms. He gave up because it took too much time
> and required too much storage. Technology has changed and scanning is
> easier and better but still requires a lot of time and massive storage
> (scanning of handwriting has to be at a high resolution to be able to read
> it).
>
> Storage continues to get cheaper and cheaper. But with the geometries of
> the storage cells getting into sub-nanometer range it also makes them more
> susceptible to high energy particle damage. Sound like science fiction? It
> is not.
>
> The evolution of storage devices often makes previous technology
> unavailable. Anybody seen a floppy disk recently, how about a zip drive?
> Cartridge disks? I have lost significant data because there are no longer
> mechanisms that can read the media.
>
> About the only place that is safe to keep information and be assured that
> you will continue to have access to the data is in the cloud (in the
> internet).
>
> The reason I say this is not to say we should not do this but to point out
> that there are costs and risks associated with technology that are not
> generally considered until it is too late.
>
> I am not against requiring pictures for registrations. But no one has told
> me how they are going to be used. There have been lots of comments about
> how experienced irisarians would use the pictures. But what about those
> who aren't (who also comprise a much larger population of iris growers.)
>
>
>> Terry; Mike and Anne tell me they get images for about 2-4% of
>> registrations. They have not asked for them, but they have been helpful.
>> One of the goals for the suggested motion, is to help build the AIS
>> library archives. The Iris Encyclopedia also treasure photos from the
>> hybridizer. Since through time, in the Encyclopedia, when many photos
>> are
>> added to a particular cultivar page, if something has been radically
>> photoshoped, it becomes evident. No system is perfect, The words a
>> hybridizer uses may not be acurate in the description, but we still
>> write
>> descriptions. As we all adjust to new media, we all become more
>> sophisticated. I wish I could say the Iris Encyclopedia was the first of
>> its kind. But the Daylily Society, the Daffodil Society, and others have
>> all created databases with images and these use registration pictures
>> that
>> they require. Since we are not first, I suppose what we can hope for is
>> that we do it better. Certainly I would rather refer to the Iris
>> Encyclopedia than Daves Garden, or the dozen other references being
>> created out there on the internet. If we proceed quickly and well to
>> create a superior database, than people will come to the Iris Society
>> for
>> information. In that case we can send them to good sources and not the
>> questionable ones that often now appear on e-bay.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Terry Aitken" <terry@flowerfantasy.net>
>> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 1:09:55 PM
>> Subject: RE: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>>
>> 	The idea that Mike and Anne are receiving pictures of introduction
>> is news to me. They have never asked and I have never sent images. Ever
>> since we went to a color catalog - about 15 to 20 years ago - we have
>> offered all of our intos with color pictures. With an average of 10 per
>> year
>> (our own quota system), the 35mm slide days, I thought it was a waste of
>> time trying to collect images of plants UNLESS THEY WON AWARDS. I have
>> long
>> thought that, like the orchid society, we should have images of plants
>> that
>> are awarded. (the world is full of plants that aren't.)
>> 	Now, in the digital age, an image can be a double edged sword. It
>> can show how GOOD or HOW BAD a plant can really look. Another dimension
>> to
>> this is PHOTOSHOP. Enormous tricks can be played on the viewer by
>> messaging
>> an image - removing faults like narrow falls or adding colors that the
>> real
>> thing does not have. How much do you want to pay the computer operator
>> to
>> come up with a fictitious image? (I will admit to removing leaf spot,
>> dead
>> buds and torn petals on some of my images but I know it can go much
>> farther)
>> In addition, color accuracy on computer screens and projectors has been
>> a
>> notoriously bad problem.
>> 	Then there is the issue of the skill of the photographer. Some
>> photographers are very good at hiding faults like haft marks by simply
>> changing the angle of the flower. How good a story does the picture
>> tell?
>> A
>> photographer, unskilled in iris evaluation, may shoot a flower partly
>> open
>> or partly dead or awkwardly twisted - quite repulsive to the average
>> iris
>> judge or purchaser.
>> 	While the system is fraught with pitfalls, the concept of AN
>> INFORMED PUBLIC is a good one. Perhaps some of our more computer
>> literate
>> irisarians can address the pitfalls?
>>
>> Terry Aitken
>>
>> If I have a color image to look at, I will not bother with a written
>> description.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>> [mailto:owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org]
>> On Behalf Of Robert Pries
>> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 7:15 AM
>> To: AISdiscuss
>> Subject: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>>
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>
>
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