Re: Motion to remove the operations manual from the Wiki

[Jody Nolin <jody.nolin@gmail.com>]

This is a a fascinating thread to read, but there are several issues
contained and it's getting a bit confusing.
Just a couple of thoughts, not to make it even more confusing.

Ron,  as far as I remember Roy Epperson was the last parliamentarian we had.

Susan and John, you are absolutely right on about off-the-cuff motions
and committee actions.  The business of the AIS is a business.  And
should be run with the same thought and accountability.  We've
improved a lot in that regard, but still have a way to go.
Having chaired a couple of ad hoc committees, I can attest how hard it
is to get committee member input and consensus.

As for the original or amended motion, the more places we publish
information, the better. Maybe someone besides us will actually read
it.   If our membership wants to hold us to our own rules, great.    I
also agree that this should not need board action.  And information on
the wiki, blog, bulletin or website is the property of AIS, not any
one committee or person.  As such it should be available to any outlet
of the AIS.

On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Michelle Snyder
<AISSecretary@irises.org> wrote:
> Please remember that the amended motion has been withdrawn so the only thing
> we will be voting on is the original motion.  The motion does not go out for
> vote until next Tuesday.
>
> Michelle
>
>
> On 3/14/2013 10:47 AM, RON AND SUSAN COSNER wrote:
>>
>> Do not know if we have to or if we are voting but I like Gary White's
>> amended
>> motion and vote yes for this
>> Thank you and happy gardening
>> Ron Cosner
>>
>>
>>> Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Motion to remove the operations manual from the
>>
>> Wiki
>>>
>>> From: jijones@usjoneses.com
>>> Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2013 10:06:46 -0700
>>> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>>>
>>> HI Susan,
>>>
>>> I have often asked to have those who know they are going to prepare
>>> motions
>>
>> draft them in electronic form and send them to me so I don't have to type
>> them
>> (in my slow error prone style) for the big screen. A few do, but a lot of
>> our
>> motions are drafted on the spot.
>>>
>>> Things do sometimes get out of control at the meetings, but a lot of
>>> times
>>
>> to, people wait to be called on.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> John
>>> __________________
>>> John and Joanne Jones
>>> Registrar-Recorders, American Iris Society
>>> aisregistrar@irises.org
>>>
>>> John Jones, Chairman, Electronic Services Committee
>>> aiselectronicsvcs@irises.org
>>>
>>> 35572 Linda Drive
>>> Fremont, CA 94536
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 14, 2013, at 8:48 AM, Susan Grigg wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree in part with Gary and with John; however, it would be to the
>>
>> Board's
>>>>
>>>> advantage if committees worked so well that motions that needed to be
>>>> brought to the Board from a committee were prepared ahead of time,
>>
>> presented
>>>>
>>>> with the committee report, and any necessary amendments done then. Does
>>
>> it
>>>>
>>>> just involve too much typing or are our committees not functioning well?
>>>>
>>>> Why can't we at least raise hands to be recognized by the President
>>
>> before
>>>>
>>>> we speak during the Board meeting? Discussions are dominated by anyone
>>
>> who
>>>>
>>>> talks fast and loud.
>>>>
>>>> Susan Grigg
>>>>
>>>> "Where there is no law, but every man does what is right in his own
>>>> eyes,
>>>> there is the least of real liberty."
>>>> Henry M. Robert
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>>
>> [mailto:owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org]
>>>>
>>>> On Behalf Of gary white
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:16 PM
>>>> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Motion to remove the operations manual from
>>>> the
>>>> Wiki
>>>>
>>>> I agree with all that John has posted below concerning the way we handle
>>>> motions at our spring and fall board meetings. While it has not been
>>>> exactly by Robert's Rules of Order, it has usually worked well in the
>>
>> board
>>>>
>>>> meeting situation, and sometimes there is a need for considerable
>>
>> discussion
>>>>
>>>> on a particular topic and there may be several of what Robert's Rules
>>
>> refers
>>>>
>>>> to as "friendly amendments" on an abbreviated basis. These usually get
>>>> to
>>>> the same result as if we took the much longer route and made multiple
>>>> amendments, voted on the motions to amend, then voted on the amended
>>>> motions. The easiest way out and still follow Robert's Rules is to make
>>>> suggestions for revision as the motion is being written, but before the
>>>> President announces the motion for discussion. After that, we may not be
>>>> strictly following RR, but as John indicates, it has worked well for us
>>
>> when
>>>>
>>>> there are "friendly amendments".
>>>>
>>>> But, it is not so easy to do this with electronic motions, especially
>>
>> when
>>>>
>>>> there may be differing opinions and views on a motion. There is not the
>>>> same ability for all to review the motion and make suggestions for
>>
>> revision
>>>>
>>>> before it is announced for discussion. There is, by necessity, a
>>
>> prolonged
>>>>
>>>> discussion and voting time with electronic motions, and there is not the
>>>> same ability to expediently discuss and compromise, etc as at a live
>>
>> board
>>>>
>>>> meeting.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Gary
>>>>
>>>> --- On Wed, 3/13/13, John Jones <jijones@usjoneses.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: John Jones <jijones@usjoneses.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Motion to remove the operations manual from
>>>> the
>>>> Wiki
>>>> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>>>> Date: Wednesday, March 13, 2013, 1:08 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is true that Article 10, Section 3 of the AIS By-Laws (4-04-11)
>>
>> states:
>>>>
>>>> "The parliamentary rules contained in the most recent edition of
>>>> Robert's
>>>> Rules of Order shall be used in all meetings of the AIS to cover
>>
>> questions
>>>>
>>>> not provided for in these bylaws."
>>>>
>>>> We may have been playing a little "fast and loose" with Roberts Rules
>>
>> (RRs)
>>>>
>>>> in the process of making and discussing motions, but I think that what
>>>> evolved over the last several years serves us pretty well. The whole
>>
>> point
>>>>
>>>> of having motions displayed on the big screen and modifying them as
>>
>> directed
>>>>
>>>> by the board was to help ensure that the motion gets worded properly to
>>>> effect the action that the board wants. While this may engender a little
>>>> more non-RRs discussion, I believe that it saves time in that we don't
>>
>> have
>>>>
>>>> to vote to reject a motion only to have it resubmitted in a revised
>>
>> manner,
>>>>
>>>> changed again etc. None of use are exceptionally adept at constructing
>>>> perfect motions the first time and this provides a reasonable process
>>>> for
>>
>> us
>>>>
>>>> to use. Changes are accepted by the originator and seconder prior to a
>>
>> vote
>>>>
>>>> being taken.
>>>>
>>>> Certainly there are times when discussions drag on but most often they
>>>> proceed pretty quickly. There are lost of times when someone's comment
>>>> brings up an idea for someone that has already spoken and I think that
>>
>> the
>>>>
>>>> often short period of open discussion we have used in the past serves to
>>>> bring us all to better conclusions. The AIS President maintains control
>>
>> of
>>>>
>>>> the meeting and can end the discussion if needed or a motion made to
>>>> Call
>>>> the Question
>>>>
>>>> With the exception of one meeting (when I was in the hospital) I have
>>
>> served
>>>>
>>>> as Motions Secretary at the pleasure of the Board since we started doing
>>>> this at the Fall 2004 Board meeting. While the process is not strictly
>>>> according to RRs, I think that it serves the intent behind those rules
>>>> in
>>>> that we accomplish a lot in the period of time that we use. certainly in
>>
>> the
>>>>
>>>> last 7-8 years we have have has progressively shorter meetings while
>>
>> still
>>>>
>>>> getting the business done that we need done.
>>>>
>>>> I don't mean to imply that we should continue doing something just
>>
>> because
>>>>
>>>> that is the way we have done it in the past. We should always be
>>
>> accepting
>>>>
>>>> of doing things a new way that serves us better,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>> __________________
>>>> John and Joanne Jones
>>>> Registrar-Recorders, American Iris Society aisregistrar@irises.org
>>>>
>>>> John Jones, Chairman, Electronic Services Committee
>>>> aiselectronicsvcs@irises.org
>>>>
>>>> 35572 Linda Drive
>>>> Fremont, CA 94536
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:13 AM, Ron Killingsworth wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Michelle, you are correct, the board of AIS usually brings up an idea,
>>>>> talks
>>>>
>>>> about it, works out the kinks and details, then someone makes a motion,
>>>> someone seconds it, and then the board votes. Technically, nothing is
>>>> supposed to be discussed by the board unless there is a seconded motion
>>>> before the board. This cuts down on a lot of talking and discussion and
>>>> also stops discussion on an idea of only one person. I agree that
>>>> conducting a meeting by a strict interpretation of Robert's Rules of
>>
>> Order
>>>>
>>>> can make it complicated.
>>>> However, I really think that the board should at least follow the
>>>> general
>>>> guidelines of Robert's Rules. The rules actually limit the discussion of
>>
>> a
>>>>
>>>> motion -- i.e., once a person expresses his/her opinion on the motion,
>>
>> that
>>>>
>>>> person can not again have the floor until everyone has had a chance to
>>>> express an opinion and unless it is agreed by all to extend the
>>
>> discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, this can get real complicated. But, following the basic rules
>>>>> of
>>>>
>>>> Roberts will help the meetings to run smoother and cut out some of the
>>
>> two
>>>>
>>>> hour discussions on a simple matter such as publishing the 2014
>>>> calendar.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the original motion maker and the seconder is willing to change the
>>>>
>>>> motion to something resembling my amendment, I am willing to withdraw my
>>>> amendment (if the person who seconded it agrees) and to allow the
>>>> amended
>>
>> by
>>>>
>>>> the original people motion to proceed with discussion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ron
>>>>> Director, AIS
>>>>> Adv Editor
>>>>>
>>>>> On 3/13/2013 12:04, Michelle Snyder wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I only have the revised 10 edition and it isn't the easiest to
>>>>>> understand,
>>>>
>>>> at least not to this lay person. Anyway, for as far back as I can
>>
>> remember,
>>>>
>>>> we have always allowed the members to voice their opinion on an existing
>>>> motion regarding changes but we have also had the changes agreed to by
>>
>> the
>>>>
>>>> original motion maker and the second, or the originators have agreed to
>>>> withdraw their motion. From what I see from Gary's email, it appears
>>
>> while
>>>>
>>>> the motion is pending it can be amended several times during the
>>
>> discussion
>>>>
>>>> process. It appears this could drag out motions for a very long time. If
>>>> we accept the motion to amend as presented, that amended motion would
>>
>> have
>>>>
>>>> to go through the discussion and voting period (two weeks) and then the
>>>> original motion, possibly as amended, would have to go through the same
>>>> process. This seems like it would stop any motion from going forward in
>>>> a
>>>> reasonable time frame. Perhaps we should discuss this further at the
>>>> spring board meeting a!
>>>> nd Jim could contact our legal adviser and she could present a
>>>> definitive
>>>> explanation of how this should work. Have we been doing our amendments
>>>> to
>>>> pending motions wrong all along?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> During our Spring and Fall board meetings motions have been amended a
>>>>>> lot
>>>>
>>>> before being voted on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Michelle
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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