Re: Wiki Problem

[Robert Pries <robertpries@embarqmail.com>]

John; I am sorry you felt slurred, but that was exactly the reaction i had when you refered to the wiki problem as if it was my fault for not percieving it. When the wiki was being created I relied on all of you to help me achieve the Encyclopedia. I new nothing except the concept. I am grateful to all of you for what you have done and I have learned about the wiki program as i went along. I do not feel that it was intentional on anyones part, but I do not wish to be acused of being rash in it creation, because I did not get all the advice that was needed. I do not feel it was anyones fault, and I was taken aback at the acusation that seem implied in what you said.

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Jones" <jijones@usjoneses.com>
To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:44:39 PM
Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images

> Okay; You want the treatise. Truthfully I think You should suggest some
> uses but it is always easier to find fault with positive suggestions,

So let me understand this. In any discussion of a new idea we should never
consider any of the negative aspects of it, alternative ideas, or
constructive criticism.

>
> My preference would be to start collecting the pictures and create the
> policy and procedures later as we experience the difficulties.
Yes you have been clear about that.


> The
> reference you made to the wiki problem is interesting because in theory my
> team of expert advisors, You, Catherine and Chris all told me after the
> fact that you were aware of the limitation that caused the problem.

Well, let's get the facts straight.

I can't speak for Catherine, or Chris but I can tell you that I did not
know about the limitation until after the problem arose. There is no way I
could have. It is a limitation of the operating system file structure on
the server.

I was very clear when you brought up the issue of a wiki at the board
meeting that I did not have the time or experience to support a wiki. I
did commit to finding you a host for the wiki, which commitment I met.

> But
> sadly none of you mentioned that it could be a problem. I never pretended
> to know of that and sadly since no one bothered to inform me, we are now
> stuck with the hard work of essentially recreating the wiki. So maybe
> everything does need to be spelled out.

Neither Chris or I ever claimed know anything of the internal operation of
the wiki.

Subsequent to the problem coming up we (Chris mostly) discovered several
things. There are other file structures that do not have the limitation of
32,000 pages in a directory (web). That, however, does not solve the
significant performance problem of having large webs. The Twiki
documentation strongly recommends that no web be larger than 11,000 pages.
That is because of the way the wiki (not the operating system) performs
its searching and page retrieval. Had you followed recommendation in the
Twiki documentation, the problem would never have come up.

This is not the real issue for this discussion, but I will not be slurred
in public and not respond. I did not attack you and resent your
implication that I failed to meet my obligations. In fact I have done much
more to support you that I comitted to.

John

>
> I would fully expect that any pictures used as part of registration would
> be archived in the AIS library for future use in any pertinent AIS
> project. That of course would include the wiki, slide programs, the
> bulletin, promotional materials, sales and auctions. Despite the fact that
> AIS would have use of these materials I believe any other use should be at
> the discretion of the hybridizer/photographer. Hybridizers should not see
> their pictures used by a competing nursery unless of course they have been
> given permission by the hybridizer.  But pictures used by AIS to in some
> way promote Iris benefits the hybridizer also in the form of good
> publicity. If anyone bothers to stop and think, they can realize how
> useful this could be both to AIS and to the registrant. Just as the Iris
> Encyclopedia and for that matter Davebs Garden says that the photos are
> the copyright of the photographer the same is essentially true here but
> they could be used to favorably promote/educate AIS and the hybridizer.
>
> I have worded my posts carefully to say that we should ASK for images. I
> have not said, Demand. I believe if we ask as if it were a requirement, we
> would get good compliance but I am not ruling out registrations that just
> can not comply. I have not and would not expect to make strict
> requirements on file size, quality, etc. Until we have some sort of system
> in place and functioning I believe we will just have to utilize what we
> get in the best ways that are possible. Practically everything can go into
> the Encyclopedia because it uses small file sizes and even poor quality
> can add to the information until better pictures come along. But unless
> the photos received are of sufficient quality and file size the may not be
> valuable for future use in the Bulletin. The Slide program chair would
> probably have less of a requirement for file size than the bulletin but
> perhaps need for better quality than the Wiki. But presently we have
> nothing from registration. Registration is what sets us apart from the
> Daves Gardens and not utilizing it to assemble the best knowledge base we
> can is a waste of that opportunity.
>
> Local Affiliates are always looking for a source of photos for their plant
> sales. Presently many contributors to the wiki say they are pleased to
> allow their photos for plant sale or auction use. But others who have
> contributed wish to retain their copy rights and prefer they were not used
> for affiliate sales unless request is made to them. If AIS had official
> registration pictures they could be identified as such and utilized by the
> AIS affiliates.
>
> You mentioned that pictures are used for verification and identification.
> I am sure all HIPS members would have been delighted if pictures had been
> part of the early registrations. Everyone knows that identification using
> pictures is risky. It is even worse when you only have written
> descriptions, even the more modern ones written descriptions that give
> beard color, etc. But everyone knows that everyday irisarians are making
> identifications based on rather poor information. Pictures will only
> improve this slightly but they will improve it. It seems for more logical
> to have at least some pictures from the hybridizer that can be depended on
> as at least the plant he was introduce than even good photos that came
> later but may have gotten the plants confused. Considering that some
> hybridizers do not do a great job of writing a description a picture is at
> least is like a second opinion of whether the written registration works.
>
> My fingers are getting tired and every thing I have written seems like it
> would be self-evident to anyone seeing this e-mail, but I was asked to
> spell it all out. so I apologize for boring everyone. I am sure I have
> missed a lot. And we could go into details of how we store the pictures,
> how they get to the library and to the people doing projects, but all
> those logistics are unimportant until we decide to do this. It seems to me
> more important to adopt the dream than to study forever why we would have
> challenges to living the dream and fall asleep in the process. The idea
> could add to the robustness of many aspects of our society.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Jones" <jijones@usjoneses.com>
> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 2:00:13 PM
> Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>
>> John seems determined that I answer some of his questions so here goes;
>
> If you don't want to answer questions, then don't. I ask questions and
> make comments because I think they are important to ask them or to clarify
> things that have been said. If I think of the question I am sure others
> have as well.
>
> I would hope that more folks would jump in with thoughts.
>
>> As we both said Mike and Anne get somewhere between 1 and 4% of
>> registrations with images. Yes that is a low number, but what would you
>> expect when as they say they do not ask for them. I believe that is the
>> point of this motion. The point I was making is that they already have
>> dealt with the possibility.
>
> Again and not to take anything away from the Lowes but while Mike chose
> FileMakerPro to manage the Registration database AND FilemakerPro has the
> capability to manage photographs (and does it well) nothing else special
> has been done or required. Any database program could do the same. Lets
> keep things in perspective.
>
> Having the pictures in a database is different that having them available
> for viewing online is different. (more on this further on)
>
>> Mike shared with me that there have been instances where a photo
>> indicated
>> that the hybridizer needed to adjust his submitted written description.
>> I
>> would say that is helpful.
>
> Yes it would be.
>
>>
>> It seems to me that all the issues of technology are incidental to
>> making
>> a decision as to whether to do something. It is easy to never try
>> because
>> we do not know how. Instead I would rather we commit to trying and
>> figure
>> out the how as we begin.
>
> I don't think they are incidental. They can have a great impact on how
> much effort and cost it might take to implement something. Bob seems to
> think it is wrong to have a clear understanding of what it will take to
> implement something. I would think that he, of all people, would
> understand the implications of choosing a technology considering the
> problems he has had with the wiki.
>
>>
>> I believe John is asking the wrong question when he asks how will these
>> images be used. I could write pages on how we could use them at present,
>> and how they might be used in the future. I would hope that everyone
>> could
>> think of many ways they could be beneficial. And they will certainly be
>> abused also.
>
> Educate us Bob. Let's avoid hyperbole. So far I have only heard one way
> they would be used and I was not aware, nor do I believe, that it is the
> Registrar's responsibility to judge the accuracy of nor to correct a
> hybridizer's description.
>
> Oh, I forgot, hybridizers won't have to write descriptions any more
> (tongue-in-cheek lest someone think I really mean that).
>
> Yes, the only real negative I have thought of is the issue surrounding
> released names and multiple registered images. Certainly it won't be a big
> problem, but at least we have considered it.
>
> I believe that in order for someone (irisarian or not) to evaluate an iris
> that they need a range of photographs. One only needs to go into the wiki
> to see examples of how widely pictures of the same flower can vary. I
> actually believe that is a benefit.
>
> Bob says that there are "pages on how we could use them". That begs the
> question of how the pictures are to be made available to the "Dave's
> Garden" crowd (evidently our target market) or all the others that will
> use them. It would seem that the wiki would be a good place to put the
> photos. Certainly creating yet another online source for the pictures
> would be counter-productive.
>
> The irisregister database could be modified to accommodate pictures. Do we
> have one or multiple pictures? Is this duplicated on the wiki?
>
> I believe in looking at all sides of a question and that ignoring those
> issues that are counter to a personal position is a mistake.
>
> To be clear: I am in favor of requiring pictures for registrations.
>
> There are implementation issues surrounding the policy.
>
> * Do we refuse to register a cultivar if there is no picture?
> * Is there a period that we allow but not require photos?
> * Are there some hybridizers that can't comply?
> * Are we going to require that hybridizers fill in previous registrations
> with photos? (I can see the email now "pictures of my previous
> registrations can be found on my XXX website".)
>
> What are the standards for photo characteristics and labeling? I would be
> glad to provide a stalking horse for that:
>
> * provide both a flower picture and a whole plant picture
>
> (I had not even thought about the clump issue before) (This is a good
> example of why we need dialog)
>
> (How about a stalk picture to show branching?)
>
> * No other plants in the photo
>
> * between 4 X 6 and 5 X 7 in either portrait or landscape orientation
>
> * 72 dpi
>
> * JPEG format 50% compression
>
>
>>
>> To me the real question is why are our members going to Davebs Garden to
>> see pictures?
>
>
>
> I thought that is why we started the wiki.
>
>
> John
>
>> Why is it that AIS is not fulfilling the needs of its
>> membership? Why are we sending our members away instead of providing
>> them
>> what they are looking for. Collecting this type of data gives AIS
>> greater
>> authority and value. Failing to move forward just allows us to slip
>> further behind. And yes we are compared by plants-people to other plant
>> societies. Until we think of how to satisfy the wants and needs of our
>> members we will not prosper.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John Jones" <jijones@usjoneses.com>
>> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 1:00:32 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>>
>> The times I have spoken to Mike Lowe about how many pictures he
>> receives,
>> he indicated 1% - 2%, maybe a minor point but indicating a very low
>> number.
>>
>> I am not sure how "helpful" they were in that he also said that the only
>> thing he did with them was to staple them to the Registration form and
>> file them.
>>
>> Mike has, over the time he has been Registrar, at times tried scanning
>> pictures and registration forms. He gave up because it took too much
>> time
>> and required too much storage. Technology has changed and scanning is
>> easier and better but still requires a lot of time and massive storage
>> (scanning of handwriting has to be at a high resolution to be able to
>> read
>> it).
>>
>> Storage continues to get cheaper and cheaper. But with the geometries of
>> the storage cells getting into sub-nanometer range it also makes them
>> more
>> susceptible to high energy particle damage. Sound like science fiction?
>> It
>> is not.
>>
>> The evolution of storage devices often makes previous technology
>> unavailable. Anybody seen a floppy disk recently, how about a zip drive?
>> Cartridge disks? I have lost significant data because there are no
>> longer
>> mechanisms that can read the media.
>>
>> About the only place that is safe to keep information and be assured
>> that
>> you will continue to have access to the data is in the cloud (in the
>> internet).
>>
>> The reason I say this is not to say we should not do this but to point
>> out
>> that there are costs and risks associated with technology that are not
>> generally considered until it is too late.
>>
>> I am not against requiring pictures for registrations. But no one has
>> told
>> me how they are going to be used. There have been lots of comments about
>> how experienced irisarians would use the pictures. But what about those
>> who aren't (who also comprise a much larger population of iris growers.)
>>
>>
>>> Terry; Mike and Anne tell me they get images for about 2-4% of
>>> registrations. They have not asked for them, but they have been
>>> helpful.
>>> One of the goals for the suggested motion, is to help build the AIS
>>> library archives. The Iris Encyclopedia also treasure photos from the
>>> hybridizer. Since through time, in the Encyclopedia, when many photos
>>> are
>>> added to a particular cultivar page, if something has been radically
>>> photoshoped, it becomes evident. No system is perfect, The words a
>>> hybridizer uses may not be acurate in the description, but we still
>>> write
>>> descriptions. As we all adjust to new media, we all become more
>>> sophisticated. I wish I could say the Iris Encyclopedia was the first
>>> of
>>> its kind. But the Daylily Society, the Daffodil Society, and others
>>> have
>>> all created databases with images and these use registration pictures
>>> that
>>> they require. Since we are not first, I suppose what we can hope for is
>>> that we do it better. Certainly I would rather refer to the Iris
>>> Encyclopedia than Daves Garden, or the dozen other references being
>>> created out there on the internet. If we proceed quickly and well to
>>> create a superior database, than people will come to the Iris Society
>>> for
>>> information. In that case we can send them to good sources and not the
>>> questionable ones that often now appear on e-bay.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Terry Aitken" <terry@flowerfantasy.net>
>>> To: aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>>> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 1:09:55 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>>>
>>> 	The idea that Mike and Anne are receiving pictures of introduction
>>> is news to me. They have never asked and I have never sent images. Ever
>>> since we went to a color catalog - about 15 to 20 years ago - we have
>>> offered all of our intos with color pictures. With an average of 10 per
>>> year
>>> (our own quota system), the 35mm slide days, I thought it was a waste
>>> of
>>> time trying to collect images of plants UNLESS THEY WON AWARDS. I have
>>> long
>>> thought that, like the orchid society, we should have images of plants
>>> that
>>> are awarded. (the world is full of plants that aren't.)
>>> 	Now, in the digital age, an image can be a double edged sword. It
>>> can show how GOOD or HOW BAD a plant can really look. Another dimension
>>> to
>>> this is PHOTOSHOP. Enormous tricks can be played on the viewer by
>>> messaging
>>> an image - removing faults like narrow falls or adding colors that the
>>> real
>>> thing does not have. How much do you want to pay the computer operator
>>> to
>>> come up with a fictitious image? (I will admit to removing leaf spot,
>>> dead
>>> buds and torn petals on some of my images but I know it can go much
>>> farther)
>>> In addition, color accuracy on computer screens and projectors has been
>>> a
>>> notoriously bad problem.
>>> 	Then there is the issue of the skill of the photographer. Some
>>> photographers are very good at hiding faults like haft marks by simply
>>> changing the angle of the flower. How good a story does the picture
>>> tell?
>>> A
>>> photographer, unskilled in iris evaluation, may shoot a flower partly
>>> open
>>> or partly dead or awkwardly twisted - quite repulsive to the average
>>> iris
>>> judge or purchaser.
>>> 	While the system is fraught with pitfalls, the concept of AN
>>> INFORMED PUBLIC is a good one. Perhaps some of our more computer
>>> literate
>>> irisarians can address the pitfalls?
>>>
>>> Terry Aitken
>>>
>>> If I have a color image to look at, I will not bother with a written
>>> description.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org
>>> [mailto:owner-aisdiscuss@aisboard.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Robert Pries
>>> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 7:15 AM
>>> To: AISdiscuss
>>> Subject: [AISdiscuss] Registration Images
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
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